FRIDAY FINDS ~ Have I actually located the marriage record for my paternal great grandparents, William V. Gould & May E. Thorp? What do you think?

We all have them.  Those records that we “KNOW” should be easily located, but they elude us still.  We check again and again in all the places we think the record could or should be.  To no avail.

Such is the case of the marriage of my paternal great grandparents, William Val Gould and May (also known as Mary) Eve Thorp.  According to the 1900 census they had been married 19 years.  According to the 1910 census they had been married 29 years.  Doing the math on either of those puts the marriage in about 1881.

 

The first of the 6 children I have recorded for them was born in August 1884.  However, according to the 1900 and 1910 census, May was the mother of 7 children with 6 still living.  Each of those census records indicates a child that was deceased. 

Was there a child born to this couple between 1881 and 1884?  I’m still looking.

But, back to their marriage record.  May/Mary Eve Thorp was born in Oswego, New York 4 Apr 1862.  Her family moved to Detroit, Michigan when she was 2-3 years old.  William Val Gould was born 31 Aug 1859 in Armada, Michigan, (just north of Detroit) where he lived til his early teens.  His family then moved to Detroit.

By the year 1881 May was 19 years old and William was 22 years old.  Both sets of their parents were living in Detroit at that time, as were all of May’s siblings.  William had no living siblings.

 

Where would you look for a marriage record?  Michigan, right?  Or, from previous experience with my family, perhaps just across the river in Ontario, Canada.  Maybe even in northern Ohio?

 

Having done sweeping searches on many occasions I had come to the conclusion that I might never locate a record for this marriage.

However, we are genealogists and one thing we don't do is give up.

Fast forward to earlier this week.  I’m researching another ancestor and in the process, re reading my research notes.  Included in those notes was a copy of an email request I had sent to someone asking if they could help with 2 records I was looking for.  I date all of my research notes and this was from March 2017.  The second record was one for a marriage record in ILLINOIS that listed a May E. Thorp, age 19 marrying on 12 Oct 1881.  The page was said to be damaged and no groom’s name was listed.  There is a microfilm number and an image number listed.

Name  groom’s name not given 
Event Type    Marriage
Event Date    12 Oct 1881
Event Place    Jackson, Illinois, United States
Event Place (Original)    Jackson County, Illinois
Gender    Male
Spouse's Name    May E. Thorp
Spouse's Gender    Female
Note    Pr Name: pg cut off;
GS Film Number    000968928
Digital Folder Number   004708066
Image Number    00787

WHY IN THE WORLD DID I NOT LOOK FOR THAT FILM ON FAMILY SEARCH AT THAT TIME?  I have no good answer to that question, but I’ve had many slap your forehead moments.  This was definitely one of them.

I went right over to Family Search, to the catalog and entered that microfilm number.  Once I got to the film I entered 787 in the space for image/page number and up came an image.

I scrolled through all 800+ images and you know what?  There was only ONE that was torn.  Of course it was the image I was interested in.

Looking at this screen shot of some of the images, which one do you think is the one I'm interested in? 

Yup, the torn one in row 3.   

(You can click on any image in this post to enlarge it and zoom in)

Here it is in original form.  Not a pretty image, that’s for sure.  But, it is readable when I zoom in…..at least most of the names are.  You just hope you don’t have a name in that lower left corner, right?

That wasn’t how my luck was going to go today.  I downloaded, cropped and cleaned up the image.  However, no amount of cleanup can replace the missing names.

HERE IS THE CLEANED UP IMAGE, ANNOTATED

There in the lower left you can see the name of the woman – May E. Thorp, age 19.  No man’s name can be seen at all due to the damage on the page.

A close up of that section reveals the name May E. Thorp and her age, 19

This is encouraging to me though.  My May E. Thorp would have been 19 in 1881.  Another thing is the spelling of the Thorp name.  This line of the family spelled it without an “e” at the end.  Was this marriage in Sep or a later month?

 

According to the index I’ve copied directly from the Family Search page (see it above), the date is 12 Oct 1881.  

• My question to you is, how do they know that exact date, if no date can be seen?  
• Is there another record of this marriage somewhere in Jackson County, Illinois?  This is only a register.  Shouldn't there be a license or certificate or some other formal record of this marriage?

I will be at the Family History Library for Rootstech in February of this year and will follow up on Illinois marriage records.

What would you conclude from this?  Is this the marriage record for my paternal great grandparents?  Will I ever know for sure?  Or, is this one of the cases where we come to a conclusion based on evidence we have gathered, even though we might not have all the pieces?

My questions and thoughts…..

• If this is their marriage, why did they go to Illinois?  They were both of age so no parental consent was needed.  Jackson County, Illinois is not on the list of Gretna Green locations.
• Did they have friends or someone in the family in Illinois?  I’m not aware of any close family who lived there at that time.
• Did they elope just to avoid having an official wedding?
• Were there divisions in the family or families that caused them to go out of state?
• Were they going to honeymoon in the state and decided to marry there?

Those are some of my questions.  I’d love to have your input on the matter.

This couple stayed married until William’s death in 1924.  May lived for 22 years after him but never remarried.

OTHER POSTS THAT MAY BE OF INTEREST

MYSTERY MONDAY - WHO'S YOUR DADDY? Brick Walls Post #4 - Catherine Dorsey Thorp about 1842-1898

WHAT I LEARNED FROM ONE SINGLE PAGE OF A CIVIL WAR PENSION FILE–1864 –Edith E. Thorp widow of Walter B. Thorp

Happy hunting,

Michigan Girl

Copyright ©  2010-2020   Diane Gould Hall

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.  NO USE WITHOUT PERMISSION

52 Ancestors in 52 Weeks–Week #9–Bachelor Uncle, Ford V. Gould (1884-1947) Detroit, Michigan

This week’s subject for 52 Ancestors is “Bachelor Uncle.”  Since my only Uncle, Robert Milne married twice, I couldn’t write about him.  However, my Dad had 2 uncles, Roy and Ford Gould.  So I’ll write about my bachelor great-uncle, Ford V. Gould.

My Dad was an only child.  He was also the only grandchild of his paternal grandparents, William Val Gould and Mae Thorp Gould.
While I was growing up my Dad loved to talk about his uncles & aunts.  I knew all their names; Ford, Roy, Harry (my Dad’s father), Gladys, May “Adele” and Helen.  Wishing to this day I’d written down every word or recorded the stories.  Happily I do have family photos.

This is a photo of my great grandparents, William & Mae Gould & all 6 of their children along with my grandmother, Marie Lindsay Gould and my Dad, Harry Norman Gould

Of those 6 children, 2 never married (Ford & Helen).  Let’s talk about bachelor Ford.

Ford was the oldest of the six children.  He was born 31 Aug 1884 in Detroit, Wayne, Michigan¹.  That birth date is listed on his birth record and his death certificate.  However, his WWI and WWII draft registrations give a birth date of 30 Aug 1883.  From all records I have located for him, Ford always lived in Detroit and it seems, he stayed in the same home as his parents until his death at age 62. 

Let’s look at a timeline for granduncle Ford:

1900 - The first census I find Ford enumerated in, is the 1900 (still wishing we had that 1890 lost census).  He was living with his parents and siblings and going to school.  The family was living at 1034 13th St. in Detroit.  The census tells us that Ford’s father, William owned this home.
1901 – Detroit City Directory² – Helper – living at 899 16th St.
1903- 1907  – Detroit City Directory – Machinist – living at 905 16th St. 
1910 - By the time of the 1910 census, Ford was 26 years old, single and working as a Teamster for a steel construction company.  He was still living in the same home as his parents and four siblings.  They were living at 828 14th Ave. in Detroit. 
1911-1919 – Shown in the Detroit city directory as boarding at 125 Linwood.  This directory gives his occupation as a Machinist.  Living at this same address are his father, William. Off and on at the same address you find Ford’s brother, Harry and his sisters Gladys & Adele.
1918 – Ford registers for the draft for World War I – he lists his address as 125 Linwood, his occupation as a Machinist and his next of kin as his father, William.
1920 – Enumerated as a Machinist at an adding machine factory, living at 818 Hudson Ave., along with his father and mother.
In 1924 Ford’s father, William dies at age 64 of peritonitis due to a ruptured bladder.  This left his mother, Mae a widow and Ford continued to live with her until her death in Nov 1946.  Ford died 7 months later, 17 Jun 1947 of hypertensive heart disease.
1942 – Ford registers for the draft for World War II – he is living at 5639 Linwood and his mother, Mrs. Mary Gould, is listed as his contact info.  He is working at Cyclops Steel Co in Detroit.  His physical characteristics are given as 5’1”, blue eyes, gray/bald hair, ruddy complexion and 148 pounds.  This coincides with the less descriptive physical characteristics from the WW I draft.

Ford spent his life working mostly as a Machinist and at one time a Teamster.  Here are the definitions I've located online for those two professions.

A machinist is a person who machines using hand tools and machine tools to create or modify a part that is made of metal, plastics, or wood.  Courtesy of wikipedia

A teamster, in modern American English, is a truck driver, or a member of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, a labor union in the United States and Canada. ... Originally, the term "teamster" referred to a person who drove a team of draft animals, usually a wagon drawn by oxen, horses, or mules. Courtesy of wikipedia

I cannot speculate as to why my granduncle Ford never married. I don’t have any details of his personal life.  Wouldn’t we love to go back & ask our ancestors what their interests were, did they have any hobbies, did they travel and if so, where to and so many other questions? I hope granduncle Ford lived a happy life.

The following cut out of a picture of Ford was located among the family photos left to me by my father.  The back of the picture says “Mr. Ford Gould year of 1915 December 25th.”  I do not recognize the writing as that of either my Dad or my grandmother. 

Ford’s obituary was published in the Detroit Free Press³ on 19 Jun 1947, page 24 and reads as follows:

GOULD-June 17, Fred [Ford] Val, beloved son of the late William Val and Mary Eve; brother of Harry, Roy, Mrs. Gladys Smith, Mrs. Adele Sine and the late Helen.  Funeral from Harvey A. Neely Funeral Home, 5683 Maybury Grand, Friday at 10 a.m.
[His first name is mispelled in this obituary and should be Ford]

Ford is buried at Grand Lawn Cemetery in Detroit.  I have been there several times.  His memorial can be found here #61960668.

Sources: 1. Michigan, Births and Christenings Index, 1867-1911(Ancestry.com) 2. U.S. City Directories 3. Detroit Free Press on newspapers.com

OTHER POSTS THAT MAY BE OF INTEREST

FAMILY SEARCH - Going Back & Getting Those Other Pages - this involved Ford's birth record & others



ANCESTORS IN THE NEWS - Ford Gould car was stolen

Happy hunting,
Michigan Girl

Copyright ©  2010-2019   Diane Gould Hall

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.  NO USE WITHOUT PERMISSION

52 Ancestors in 52 Weeks–Week #4–Who Would I Like to Talk to?

Isn’t that a question we often ask ourselves?  If only we could talk to _______fill in the blank.  Maybe we could get answers to our family mysteries or just a better background on who, what, when and where.

Since the theme for this week doesn’t say we have to pick just one person, I am going to name a few of my beloved ancestors and why I’d like to (need to) speak to them.  If you’re a regular reader of my blog, you will recognize these names. I apologize for bringing them up again.  However, we all know that it only takes one person/reader to say “hey, I know the answer to that question!”  It’s what we all hope for.

William "Val" Gould - my great grandfather, son of John C. Gould

FIRST AND DEFINITELY AT THE TOP OF MY LIST – My paternal great grandfather, William V. Gould (born Vivaldo William Gould) (1859-1924).  I know, from many sources, who is father & mother were.  HOWEVER, I am completely stuck as to who his paternal grandparents were.  Who were the parents of John C. Gould?   What could William tell me about his own father?  Did he know who his paternal grandparents were?  Did he ever meet them?  What stories did his father tell about the family?  And lastly, why doesn’t there seem to be a single photo of his parents in family pictures?  They were alive until 1911 and probably 1919.  And, the next question would be – is the John Gould on the death certificate I’ve located, the correct person?  Is this William’s father?

I’ve written about this nearly two decade brick wall mystery and you can read it here MYSTERY MONDAY - WHO'S YOUR DADDY? John C. Gould 1833-1919?

THE NEXT ANCESTOR I NEED TO TALK TO – My maternal great grandfather, Robert Edward Lee Bowden, 1863-1906.  Who were his parents?  Did he have siblings?  I know absolutely nothing about his family.  

Interestingly, it was his daughter, Florence Bowden (my grandmother) who was the family historian/genealogist before me.  She kept meticulous records of family births, marriages and many deaths.  She drew a family tree by hand.  However, back in the 1970’s she wrote me a letter and in that letter is a response to a question I’d asked about her family.  Who were her father’s parents?  She could only say that she thought Robert Bowden’s mother was named Susan and that she died when my grandmother was 4 yrs. old, which would have been about 1892.  Since Robert and his wife divorced when my grandmother was about 11 yrs. old and he died when she was just 18 yrs. old, there may not have been a time when she could ask questions. Robert was a railroad brakeman and I expect he was often gone from the home.
  

 I’ve never found a picture of him and surely there must have been one taken at some point.

 
This shouldn’t come as a surprise, but I’ve also written a blog post about this brick wall and you can read it here MYSTERY MONDAY - WHO'S YOUR DADDY? Robert L. Bowden 1863-1906

Catherine Dorsey - my 2nd great grandmother with her children Annie & Horace Jr.

NEXT ON MY LIST -  My paternal 2nd great grandmother, Catherine C. Dorsey about 1842 – 1898.  She, by all records I’ve obtained, was born in Dublin, Ireland about 1842.  Her death cert lists her parents as Jno and Mary.  She lies in an unmarked grave at Mt. Elliott Cemetery in Detroit, Michigan.  

She was the wife of Horace Henry Thorp (1836-1907) and the mother of 10 children.  I have a picture of her.  I also have most of the information on 9 of her 10 children.  When did she arrive in the U.S.?  Was she really born in Dublin?  What were the full names of her parents and did she have any siblings?  How did she meet Horace?  
As you might guess, I’ve also written about her before and you can read it and see her picture here - MYSTERY MONDAY - WHO'S YOUR DADDY? Catherine Dorsey about 1842-1898

My Dad - Harry Norman Gould

AND LAST, BUT CERTAINLY NOT LEAST – My own Dad, Harry Norman Gould 1912-1991.  He absolutely loved to tell family stories and talk about when he was growing up.  He was an only child, and the grandchild of William & Mae Gould (although they had 6 children, he was the only grandchild).  I did listen to his stories growing up and when I became an adult.  I did ask him questions and we sat down and I had him label family photos for me.  But, you know how it goes.  Until we begin doing actual family research we don’t know what questions we should have asked.  

I didn’t begin my genealogy journey until 12 years after he died.  Now I have a hundred questions that I would be willing to bet he could answer for me.  And, we would have such a good time, laughing and talking about his beloved Mema and Bepa (what he called William & Mae Gould), his grandparents.  If only…….if only. 

There are dozens more ancestors that I’d love to sit down with, but for now, I’d settle for all or one of the four I’ve mentioned here.

Who would you like to talk to?  And why?
  
If you find that you are related to anyone mentioned in this post or have information for me, please get in touch.

Happy hunting,
Michigan Girl

Copyright ©  2010-2019   Diane Gould Hall

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.  NO USE WITHOUT PERMISSION

SUNDAY’S OBITUARY ~ My Grandaunt Helen C. Gould–1901-1945

Transcription of obituary - GOULD - Feb 17, 1945.  Helen C. suddenly at residence, 5639 Linwood, beloved daughter of May E and the late Wm. V., dear sister of Ford, Harry and Roy Gould, Mrs. Chas. E. Smith and Mrs. Myron A. Sine of Grants Pass, Oregon.  Funeral service from Floyd L. Hamilton Funeral Home, 12th near West Grand Blvd. Wednesday at 9:15.  St. Leo's Church 10 a.m.  Interment Mt. Olivet Cemetery.

Here is Helen pictured with some of her family.

Helen Gould with her parents Mae & William - circa 1920

Helen C. Gould

Helen Gould on the right and her older sister Mae Adele on the left - circa 1913-1915

Helen C. Gould was the youngest of my grandfather’s siblings.  The family had 3 boys; Ford, Harry (my grandfather) and Roy.  Then they had 3 girls; Gladys, May “Adele” and Helen.

Helen was born 12 Mar 1901 in Detroit, Wayne, Michigan.  She was living at home with her parents, Wm. Val & Mae Gould in the 1910 and 1920 census.  In 1920 she was working as a Stenographer at a motor factory.  Working in the auto industry was a common thread for my ancestors in Detroit during this time when the auto business was booming.  By 1930 she was living with her married sister, Adele (now Mrs. James Conner) and working as a Stenographer at a trust company.

I have found no evidence that Helen ever married or had any children.  Her brother, Ford, also never married.  Of the 6 children born in this Gould family, only one of them had a child and that was my grandfather, Harry.  Talk about not having collateral family to research.  Helen seemed to be a good looking, well dressed woman.  I always wonder why someone doesn’t marry.  It was much less common back then than it is now.

Strangely, I cannot locate Helen in the 1940 census.  Her place of death, 5639 Linwood is the home where her mother lived from before 1930 until her death in 1946.  In the 1940 census, Helen’s mother, Mae Gould is living in the home on Linwood, with her son, Ford and sister Catherine Thorp.  So, where is Helen?

Helen was only 43 years old when she died.  I don’t have a copy of her death certificate.  I either need to order it and pay the fee or wait 3 more years for it to be released to the public.

 

However, thanks to my cousin, Marian, I do have the information contained on the certificate.  You see, Marian was doing some transcribing/indexing for familysearch.org when she came across Helen’s death certificate.  She didn’t grab a screenshot, but wrote down most of the important items as follows:

• Certificate #333216
• Address – 5639 Linwood Ave., Detroit, Michigan
• Date of birth - 12 Mar 1901
• Date of death – 17 Feb 1945 at 11;30 p.m.
• Occupation – Stenographer for Frisbee Insurance Co.
• Date of burial – 21 Feb 1945 at Mt. Olivet Cemetery, Detroit, Michigan
• Cause of death – Cardiac failure following chronic myocarditis and acute dilatation pyogenic nephritis
• Informant – Gladys L. Smith (sister) of 3729 14th St., Detroit, Michigan
• Funeral director – Floyd L. Hamilton at 7334 Twelfth St., Detroit, Michigan

Until doing this review for Helen, I had forgotten that I don’t have a place of residence for her in 1940 or a copy of her death certificate.

 

Helen is buried with her parents at Mt. Olivet Cemetery.  I visited their gravesites when I was there in 2007 and took the following photos.

You may visit Helen’s FindAGrave memorial here #32439516.

If you have any further information to share about Helen, I’d love to hear from you.  I’m always looking to connect with anyone who has information about my Gould family.

 

OTHER POSTS THAT MAY BE OF INTEREST

Did My Grandparents Almost Win a Home in a Detroit suburb in 1956?

Sunday's Obituary - Harry Whipple Gould, my grandfather and Helen's brother (1886-1960)

Happy hunting,

Michigan Girl

Copyright ©  2010-2019   Diane Gould Hall

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.  NO USE WITHOUT PERMISSION

SEPIA SATURDAY ~ From here to there–My great grandparents & family in a parade

This will be my first Sepia Saturday post.  This weeks theme is “from here to there.”  Many of the posts from others have to do with modes of transportation.
 
I thought I would begin this series with a very familiar photo – the one that you all see at the top of my blog page.



I just love this photo.  This appears to be some sort of a parade.  I see streamers on the windshield and flags on the car.  I see a Detroit pendant hanging near the driver.  You can see another vehicle in the background, with what appear to be similar streamers on it.

Is this photo reversed or is my great grandfather driving some sort of car from the U.K. or other European country.  Why is the steering wheel on the right side of the car instead of the left?

Who is in this car?

This is the family of my great grandparents, William Val Gould and his wife, Mae Thorp Gould.  In the front seat are my great grandfather, the driver, his daughter Helen and his son, Roy.  In the back seat, the women on the right is my great grandmother, Mae Thorp Gould.  The other two young ladies are probably the other two daughters of William and Mae, Gladys and Adele Gould, but I am not sure.

I have always wanted to know what type of car this is? What year model?  The car looks very shiny and new.  Was it borrowed, or did my great grandfather own it?

Since the daughter, Helen Gould, was born in 1901 and her brother Roy was born in 1888, I am guessing this photo to be 1910-1915.  How old do you think Helen (in the front seat) looks?  I think 10-12.

Any of you that are car buffs, please feel free to jump in and help me out.  I welcome your input.

Happy hunting,

Michigan Girl

Copyright ©  2010-2016   Diane Gould Hall

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.  NO USE WITHOUT PERMISSION 

SUNDAY’S OBITUARY–William V. Gould, 1859-1924

DETROIT NEWS - 25 FEB 1924

Vivaldo William Gould or as he was better known, William "Val" Gould, was my paternal great grandfather.  I never knew him as he died long before I was born.  However, my father, who was William’s grandson, spoke of him throughout my years of growing up.  My Dad called him Beepa and called his grandmother, Mae, Meema.  I have never heard those names referring to grandparents since my Dad passed.  Have you ever heard those names as nicknames for grandparents?

William “Val” Gould was born on 31 Aug 1859 in Armada, Macomb, Michigan to parents John C. Gould and Sarah M. Hart.  The family moved to Detroit, Michigan between 1870 and 1878.  William “Val” married Mary “Mae” Eve Thorp.  I have not been able to locate their marriage record.  Though heaven knows I’ve been hunting for it for many years.  

“Val” & Mae had 7 children according to census records and her death record.  I know the names of 6 of those children: Ford V., Harry W., (my grandfather), Roy V., Gladys L., May A., and Helen C. I am guessing that one child died at birth or very young, as I can find no record.

From all six of those children there was only one grandchild born who grew to adulthood, my father Harry Norman Gould.  

Back to William V.  He worked in a paint store or as a supervisor at a paint company for all of his life.  He worked at S. H. Hart, which was a paint manufacturing company in Detroit.  He also worked at Standard Paint & Varnish in Detroit.

I am very fortunate to have many photos of my great grandfather William “Val” Gould.  In fact, it is one of those photos which you will often see associated with this blog.

The photo on the left is William V. driving the car, with his daughter Helen in the middle and son, Roy.  In the back seat on the far right is his wife Mae.  I cannot be sure of the identities of the other two ladies.  This photo was circa 1910-1915. 
The photo on the right is William (back row far right) with his wife and six children and his grandson (my Dad) circa 1915-1916.
 
  

William died on 24 Feb 1924 in Detroit.  He was only 64 years old.  His cause of death was peritonitis due to a ruptured gall bladder.  He is buried with his wife and his daughter, Helen at Mt. Olivet Cemetery in Detroit, Michigan.  I have been able to visit him twice during trips back to Detroit.

Headstone of William V. Gould - photo taken at Mt. Olivet Cemetery by Diane Gould Hall

Rest in peace great grandfather.  I wish I had known you.  I certainly have unanswered questions about your father, John. 

Happy hunting,

Michigan Girl

Copyright ©  2014   Diane Gould Hall

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.  NO USE WITHOUT PERMISSION